Name:     Michael L. S.   [E-Mail]
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Shalom aleichem!

I read a pretty good article in HaAretz today written by Uri Avnery. I have reservations about mar Avnery who--in my opinion--is just trying a bit too hard but most of what he wrote today, especially toward the end, is just dead on. Read it yourselves: How I Became What I Am.

OK, the long and anxiously anticipated sequel of Cliff's and my exchange. I thought I'd be posting two letters in each installment but then I saw it would be too long for comfort so, on this occasion: his response to my letter which I quoted in the penultimate entry. His (CJ) statements are shown in dark red and mine (MS) are in green.

Administrator wrote:
[MS:] Hi again Cliff:

You're right about the Britishers. Don't forget their latest outrage: the phoney war in Iraq.

[CJ:] No problem with this.


[MS:] I don't think the Palestinians SHOULD suffer at all because of the Britishers or us or anyone else! I think they must have a state in Judea, Samaria and Gaza but that's beside the point.

[CJ:] Why is this beside the point?


[MS:] Yes, at least 500,000 Arabs were left refugees following the 1948 war. But I strongly disagree that they were driven out by the Jewish forces, let alone in an act of ethnic cleansing. No doubt tales, real and imaginary, of massacres by Etzel and Lehi (Irgun and Stern) had something to do with it.

[CJ:] There is abundant evidence of a terror campaign deliberately designed to make the Palestinians flee from the land where thay had lived for generations.


[MS:] But there is just as much evidence of Arab civil and military leaders inviting them to leave for this or that reason, and also there was a war going on and people sensibly didn't want to stay there. I accept that the vast majority of them left with a view to coming back at some point. I think they should all be adequately compensated.

[CJ:] And when will the compensation come?


[MS:] Another fact going against the ethnic cleansing theory is that, while 400-650,000 Arabs left what became Israel, 250,000 did not (they and their posterity are today citizens of Israel and commonly referred to as "Israeli Arabs"--they make 20% of Israeli citizens). I'm not trying to be funny here, but someone trying to ethnically cleanse an area wouldn't leave two out of every five "clients" behind.

[CJ:] Well, I could respond that the ethinic cleansing was not a complete success. And do you really believe that the Arab Israelis have equal rights?


[MS:] But also bear in mind that NO-ONE has abused the Palestinians, especially the refugees, more than Arab leaders who have cynically been exploiting them for propaganda gains. The refugee problem could've been resolved decades ago--remember the even greater number of Jews who were driven out of Arab countries at the roughly same time?

[CJ:] There is also evidence that Mossad created "incidents" to motivate the Jews to emigrate to Israel.


[MS:] They haven't been languishing in squalid camps for 56 years sending bombers to Cairo pizzerias and Damascus buses but were immediately absorbed by Israel and they're now living there very happily.

[CJ:] From my experience in Israel I didn't find many happy people.


[MS:] Arabs countries don't give a flying monkey's ass about the refugees. Jordan killed five times more of them in one month than died in these four years of "intifada" (Black September, 1972). Kuwait booted out 300,000 of them 14 years ago. In Lebanon they have fewer rights than did enslaved African Americans in the old Confederacy. Arafat certainly doesn't care about them. I personally think Israel should more than anyone show we care and, as I said, at the very least generously compensate them.

[CJ:] There's a lot of truth in what you say.


[MS:] Blowing up a bus is a premeditated act designed very deliberately to take down as many Jews (or whoever else happens to be riding on there) as possible. It is not done out of despair nor is it done because actual soldiers or other military/strategic targets are nowhere else to be found. They are acts whereby maximum firepower available is used against places with the highest concentration of people (civilians). That's not warfare and that's not guerilla.

[CJ:] But blowing up the King David hotel where there were many civilians is warfare?


[MS:] Instead of blowing up a pizzeria, a moral fighter would blow up a bridge, railroad line or desalination plant. The long-term damage would be greater, there would be no moral opprobrium attached and it would actually make the government think while leaving the "let's retaliate" brigade without a leg to stand on. But of course, doing that would undermine the whole culture of war and hatred that's been carefully cultivated by the PA so it's not going to happen. ...

[CJ:] I don't think that the PA has to cultivate hatred. An occupied people will often resist. Or do you blame the leaders of the Warsaw uprising for cultivating hatred against the Nazi occupiers?


[MS:] Dropping a bomb on civilian Palestinian areas is not acceptable. Don't forget though that such actions do NOT have as their aim killing as many civilians as possible and they are done because the legitimate target IS actually hiding/present in that area constantly.

[CJ:] So you have no problem with "collateral damage"? Are you saying that if I kill innocent people when trying to arrest a criminal then it's okay? Would you like to explain that to the mother of a baby who had been "caught in the crossfire"?


[MS:] I personally think Israel should carry out raid-and-arrest operations which would ensure there were hardly ANY casualties but there IS a fundamental difference in the mentality behind the two types of "operation".

And lastly, don't just listen to the media. The media don't tell you about operations that were aborted because there was a risk of civilian casualties; they don't tell you about trials of soldiers when an operation goes wrong and civilians are killed (thru negligence, false intelligence and similar); and it DOES happen, a lot.

[CJ:] Could you tell me how many IDF soldiers have actually been punished for crimes against civilians? Or are the IDF an exception and there is not a single member of the IDF who has ever killed an innocent civilian? They're all angels?


[MS:] I don't want to justify nasty deeds by the IDF--I don't think they CAN be justified. Believe it or not, I am aware of how the soldiers can and do behave and what the Palestinians have to go thru, and I am VERY bothered by it.

[CJ:] Are you bothered enough to do something about it? The fact is that Israel has maybe 200 atom bombs, 650,000 soldiers, nearly 4000 tanks, more than 500 fighter aircraft, 200 plus helicopters and spends nearly 9 billion dollars per annum for military purposes. All this in self-defence? Who in their right mind would attack Israel?


[MS:] I'm someone who was abused and humiliated because of my ethnicity and I could never (want to) justify the same happening to another human being.

[CJ:] Then don't justify it.


[MS:] My main point is that things are not black and white, and that you have to delve much deeper than a few "scoops" on the main news and emotive images to know what's really happening.

[CJ:] And what is "happening" according to you? As far as I can see the mass media toes the Zionist line.


[MS:] Listen, I'm REALLY sorry about the length of this. I know the questions were simple but the answers, just like the whole conflict, are not...

[CJ:] I don't think it's so complicated:

The Israelis have oppressed and occupied the land of the Arabs living in Palestine and justify it because:

o "God" promised the land to the Jews 4.000 / 6.000 years ago. Yeah, sure.

o The UN allotted 50% of Palestine to the Jews. (Strange that the Israelis support the UN in this, but ignore the many UN resolutions since 1948.) Israel proper (1967 border) consists of 78% of Palestine plus the settlements. Not much left for the Palestinians.

o They have suffered terribly at the hands of the Germans. And how are the Palestinians to blame for this?

Kind regards,

Cliff

Just as an afterthought vis-a-vis Cliff's most discerning () remark that as far as he could see(!!!) "the mass media toes the Zionist line", consider this: several days ago Tzahal conducted an operation in Jenin in which nine terrorists were eliminated with an additional civilian casualty. On the very same day an auto-bomb exploded in Iraq in front of a police station where hundreds of young Iraqi men were queuing hoping to find a job--at least forty-seven (47) people were killed (all civilians) and over 120 wounded. But guess what: newsagencies around the world, according to Google, produced 843 reports concerning Jenin while only 784 thought ten times as many dead Iraqis (and civilians at that) deserved any mention. Some "toeing the Zionist line"...

L'makhar...

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